Thursday, 14 June 2018

How I ended up on route 66



Dear BEVA enthusiasts,

Our BEVA executive assistant Fiona who completed the 66 mile challenge has asked me to write you a blog about how I intended doing the 30 mile cycle on the 3rd of June but accidentally ended up cycling the 66 mile challenge which I playfully call Route 66’. Being Irish necessitates an innate talent for taking “the mick” out of oneself so I gladly accepted the opportunity to write my ‘Route 66’ blunderful revelations.

I will begin by explaining what my mid breeding season BEVA sportive preparation actually consisted of. While the rest of the Donnington Grove team committed themselves to regular weekend cycles, I only managed one cycle that was 24 miles long wearing an ugly horse-riding helmet “borrowed” from the practice. After only 24 miles of cycling, one of my regular stud farms found my new gait concerning and gave me some bicycle shorts. This in itself was enough to put me off further training. I spent the next few weeks preceding the challenge avoiding Bruce who would have sacked me if he found out that I had no intention of cycling 91 miles.

On Saturday following stud rounds I set off to Yorkshire. I bought a helmet in Halfords that morning purely to blend in with the other cyclists. It was an easy journey following the two other Donnington Grove vehicles and listening to their terrible attempts at road trip singing via whatsapp. Approaching Birmingham it dawned on me that I had left my gift bicycle shorts and any form of comfortable underwear at home in Newbury. But this wouldn’t matter since I was only doing 30 miles - right? I met the rest of the team in a restaurant that evening and was surprised to see them looking rather apprehensive. This was because Bruce had taken them for a drive around the 91 mile course and consequently driven them ... around the bend. It seemed like the only thing keeping a smile on the faces of at least the men on the team was the prospect of meandering their way across two hills they affectionately christened “the bosoms of Yorkshire.”

Let me tell you about the Donnington Grove team. Georgio is a cool, collected Italian surgeon who had put in plenty of training. Emma, a Kiwi housevet who has cycled thousands of miles around South Island was calm and confident. Surgeon Alastair hails from Yorkshire, can lift three times his own body weight, and looked similarly confident. Naomi, the most experienced housevet is a keen cyclist so the impending pain didn’t seem to faze her. Marc, one of DG’s talented ambulatory vets was an enigma to me. I had not seen him on a bicycle but he definitely had all the gels and electrolytes to complete 91 miles. Abbie, also a Donnington Grove housevet was petrified but remarkably determined. Bruce, our team leader and motivator, who needs no introduction to BEVA members, had very worryingly run out of words.  Then of course there is yours truly, smug at the prospect of cycling a mere 30 miles and enjoying coffee and cake along the way.



And they were off! Half an hour later I was at the start line. I got the general lecture and guidelines about the course from the gentleman at the start line. I stopped listening after “follow the green signs”. How hard could it be for an Irish to follow some green signs right?

I set off with a banana and half a bottle of water. I’d be back soon. With my head down, I cycled with determination. I skipped Hovingham’s most amazing coffee shop (already obliviously off course) in order to quickly pedal round to the finish line, drive to the Donnington 91 milers and offer them moral support and Volvo draft. As I kept cycling with blinkered focus, it started to dawn on me that I had been cycling for some time now and that there seemed to be more hills than I had anticipated. Upon acquisition of internet signal, google maps confirmed that I was 45 km away from the finish line by the shortest route and I had been cycling for almost 3 hours! I called my most patient friend Shelley who pulled up the routes on her computer and confirmed that since I had passed through Kirkbymoorside (35 miles from the start) I was in fact on the 66 mile challenge. Shelley is still wondering how I navigated my way through vet school, let alone this thing called life. 

I sat in the grass and pulled out my banana and half a bottle of water and considered my options ... of which there were none. I had to finish the 66 mile challenge. I was lucky to be discovered in said position by Gem who is a small animal vet at Calder vets in York and her husband Steve. They offered me all the moral support, patience, and water to get me through a despondent middle third of Route 66. Antique tractors offering a draft for 5 miles around Malton were also welcomed. Team Donnington’s geographically challenged member finished 66 miles strong in 6 hours 12 minutes, a time that somewhat softened the stupidity of ending up so far off course. I was just happy that I made it in time to cheer on the Donnington Grove 91 milers on their arrival back.

One person on the Donnington team deserves a very special mention. This is the story of a girl who does not love cycling, got attacked by road bollards and had a nasty fall in the first stretch of the 91 mile challenge, but still refused to abandon the challenge. She continued to complete more than 91 miles over Yorkshire highs and lows. Abbie finished with a damaged ankle and a giant smile on her face. She also completed a day of work the following Monday. She is the newest qualified veterinary surgeon at Donnington Grove and exemplifies all the mental fortitude and positive attitude that’s needed to tackle the inevitable bumps in the road to success. After 91+ miles I think this photo says it all.



So what did I learn on completion of this surprise challenge? 

Prior preparation prevents poor performance ... make time for all those P’s.

Sometimes life will throw you off course and the lesson is to embrace and “ride on” because you might meet some fantastic people on the new route and end up in a better place.

Abbie exemplified riding the hard road, your attitude defines your altitude.

And finally;

Victoria’s Secret is great for certain activities ... and cycling is not one of those activities.

See you all at the next BEVA challenge!


Wednesday, 16 May 2018

Victoria Gregory : Being an Equine RVN

I started working at Rossdales Equine Hospital in 2003 and qualified as an Equine Veterinary Nurse in 2007. In 2010 I took a sabbatical to work at Scone Equine Hospital, Australia, during their foaling season. I enjoy teaching so in 2015 I decided to move to a university hospital so that I could continue to be an equine nurse but teach as well. I spent some time at the Royal Veterinary College in Hertfordshire before moving to Scotland to work at Weipers Centre Equine Hospital at the University of Glasgow.
When I’m not at work I enjoy spending time exploring the Scottish countryside with my Springer Spaniel, Jonty.



I grew up with horses and all I wanted to do was work with horses. After leaving school I attended Moulton Agricultural College where I completed a BSc (Hons) in Equine and Estate Studies. It was during my time there that I saw a job advertised for an equine veterinary nurse and decided that that was the career for me. When leaving college I sent my CV to several equine practices enquiring about trainee nursing positions. During the summer I took a temporary position at an equine rehabilitation centre to enhance my CV.

I was lucky enough to get a job as a trainee nurse at Rossdales Equine Hospital, which was already an established training practice. After a year of working as a theatre assistant I was enrolled on the Equine Nursing course which was then an NVQ level 2 & 3. I went to college one day a week for two years and completed a portfolio at work to show that my clinical skills were up to standard. I had to sit multiple choice question exams at the end of year 1 and 2 as well as practical exams at the end of year 2.



The role as an equine veterinary nurse can vary greatly between practices, some giving nurses more responsibility than others. No day is ever the same, you can set a basic daily routine but this can be disrupted by emergencies and patient compliance! The basic daily routine where I work is:
8.30 – start. The students have started the morning checks and treatments, nurses assist with this when necessary. If there is a surgery booked in, the nurse guides the students through catheter placement, administering any medications and removing the horse’s shoes.
9.00 – Rounds, each patient is presented by the student in charge of that case.
9.30 – the first surgery is anaesthetised. Any inpatient procedures are started, such as x-rays, re-exams and bandage changes
10.00 – the first outpatient appointments start – the university is close to the city so owners often get stuck in traffic if asked to arrive earlier than this.
Inpatient care and outpatient appointments continue throughout the day until the work is completed. The nurses are on a rolling rota, spending a week with the medicine team, a week with the orthopaedic team and a week on the late shift, helping out wherever. As well as helping with the patients the nurses work as a team to ensure that stock orders are placed, rooms are fully stocked and cleaned, bins are emptied, equipment is in full working order, necessary equipment is clean and sterile for procedures, medications are ready for dispensing with patients that are going home, the bills are up to date for when the owners enquire and the list goes on! Being a teaching hospital the nurses are also responsible for teaching and assessing students for their Direct Observation of Procedural Skills. These include tasks such as x-raying, shoe removal, IV catheter placement and bandaging.

I would describe my job as rewarding. There is nothing better than seeing horses going home, after a stay in hospital, with their owners so happy to have them home again. In the university it is also rewarding to see the student’s progression in the time that they spend with us. The vast majority are not horsey but they are always keen to learn and be involved. It is extremely tough at times when there is nothing more that you can do to help a patient but at least it is possible to end their suffering and know that they had the best possible care until the end. The thing I love most about my job is the horses!



I was extremely proud when I qualified as an equine veterinary nurse; I had worked really hard to get there. My proudest achievement though, is probably being asked to make a DVD for Lantra to promote equine veterinary nursing as a career choice.

For the future I would like to carry on advancing my equine nursing knowledge in order to care for the patients as best as I can. I would also like to continue to be involved in teaching veterinary nursing students and veterinary students.  

Thursday, 10 May 2018

Marie Rippingale : Being an REVN

My name is Marie Rippingale. I have worked in equine veterinary practice since 2003. I qualified as a Registered Equine Veterinary Nurse (REVN) in 2007. I obtained my Advanced Diploma in Equine Veterinary Nursing (DipAVN Equine) in 2013. I work as a senior equine nurse at Scarsdale Vets, and as a lecturer in equine veterinary nursing at Bottle Green Training. I live with my other half who is a small animal vet, and a small 15 year old ginger and white cat called Dougal, who constantly declares that he is hungry, regardless of how much he is fed! I also own a 20 year old Irish Sports Horse called Chaplin. We mainly compete in British Eventing (BE) 80 competitions, and Novice dressage. Chaplin specialises in running away on the cross country course, and spooking at random things in dressage arenas! I also enjoy scuba diving and snowboarding (badly!).



I completed a BSc (Hons) in Equine Sports Science in 2005, and as part of this course, I took a year out to work as an equine nursing assistant at Scarsdale Vets. I enjoyed this year out so much that I went back to work at Scarsdale as soon as I graduated from university. I have always loved horses, and cannot think of any better job than caring for them, and treating them, when they are unwell.

I took the vocational route of training. This involved me working at Scarsdale four days per week, and attending college one day per week. The course lasted two years, and was assessed with exams, a practical portfolio and practical exams (OSCEs). It was a lot of work, and was really challenging both academically and practically. Working full time and training at the same time was hard, but it was totally worth it in the end.



The structure of my day depends on what area I am working on that week (the nurses all rotate      around areas spending 1 week on each). The areas we rotate around are:
Pharmacy (8am-4.30pm): This involves helping with Artificial insemination (AI) mares first thing in the morning. After that we unpack the drugs order, put it away insuring correct stock rotation and update all of the stock records. The rest of the day is usually spent helping out in the hospital or with the inpatients. You will often go out and assist with ambulatory procedures when on this area e.g. radiographs, ultrasound scans and endoscopes. In the afternoon we construct a new drugs order, and an order for the hospital. Due to the reduced contact with inpatients on this area, this nurse is usually nominated to look after the isolation cases when they are admitted.
Hospital (8.30am-5.00pm): This involves helping out with procedures in the hospital e.g. lameness work ups, gastroscopes, radiographs, ultrasound scans, shockwave treatment, general anaesthesia and assisting in theatre. There are usually two nurses on this area and they work together with the hospital vet for that day to get everything done, and make sure it all runs smoothly.
Inpatient care (8.30am-5.00pm): On this shift you check and TPR all of the inpatients and give them their medication. You will consult the case vet for each patient, and obtain a plan for that patient for the rest of the day. We compile and fill out nursing care plans for the critical patients we get at the practice, and fill these in when we are on this area. We also groom the horses and pick their feet out. This is good for their general health and well-being, as well as supplying them with some much needed TLC – happy horses heal faster! When working on this area, you will also prepare the horses for general anaesthesia, including intravenous (IV) catheter placement, clipping, mouth washing and giving pre-anaesthetic medications.
Although it says here that we should finish at 5pm, we all know that horses do not just get sick during working hours, so if a patient needs care after this time, one of us will often stay behind to help. We also work on a weekend on call rota.

I find my job challenging, fascinating, exciting and rewarding. I really love seeing our longstanding patients, either for a re-examination, or when they come in for a vaccination. It is so nice to see them looking well in themselves and enjoying life. You build up a rapport with the client too which is really nice. I also really love it when inpatients start to improve and look better.

My proudest achievement as an equine veterinary nurse was volunteering for the BEVA Trust to go out to the Gambia in West Africa to work at The Gambia Horse and Donkey Trust (GHDT). I have taken two trips so far, one in 2015, and one in December 2017. These trips were challenging and fascinating all at the same time. I was delighted to find that I could actually help out there, but I learned an enormous amount in return. I have an limitless amount of respect for the staff at GHDT for the amazing job they do out there. I am very proud to have met and worked with them.



My ambitions for the future are to continue to develop my skills and knowledge, and pass these on through teaching. I will also continue to raise awareness of equine nursing within the veterinary industry, and with the public also. I would like to see better recognition for veterinary nursing as a profession overall. 

Wednesday, 2 May 2018

George Hunt : Being an Equine RVN

My name is George Hunt and I work at Pool House Equine Clinic in Staffordshire. I qualified as a small animal RVN in 1998 and then as an Equine RVN IN 2014.  When I am not at work I am busy looking after my two young children. I also ride regularly and am keen on equine behaviour.



During my training as a small animal nurse I worked in a busy mixed practice and was one of the few nurses who were happy to go out on large animal calls!! It was during this time that I developed an interest in equine nursing.

I decided very early on in school that I wanted to become a veterinary nurse and have never wanted to do anything else!!  I have now been nursing for over 25years and  still love my job.



A typical day for us starts with doing inpatient rounds along with the interns and surgeons. At this point we discuss daily treatment plans, case progression and discharge recommendations.  This will be followed by preparing any patients for surgical procedures both standing and general anaesthesia. We also run in house laboratory tests, assist with gastroscopy, as well as ensure all equipment and instruments are maintained and of course last but not least lots of cleaning up.  We have a 24hour emergency service so theatre is always left set up ready for colic surgery as this is our most common surgical emergency.  During the summer months we often have sick foals in need of nursing too!

No two days are the same which means we have to be flexible and always prepared for the next case as horses are very good at getting themselves into mischief!!  It can be stressful but also very rewarding!

The part I love most about my job is when emergency or critical patients recover and go home! This the most rewarding feeling knowing we have made a difference!

My proudest achievement has been obtaining my equine nursing top up qualification after not studying for a very long time and having two small children to take care of!!



The number of equine nurses is currently small compared to their small animal counterparts and so my ambition for the future would be to continue to support the growth of the equine nursing profession through training of new nurses and promoting our skills. As equine nurses our skills make a positive difference to the care of horses. TLC has been proven to improve welfare and outcome of hospitalised patients.

I am also keen on promoting more sympathetic and positive training in the horse to allow for better welfare through behavioural knowledge. This is so important not only for the welfare of the horses but also the safety of staff when dealing with difficult patients.

Wednesday, 28 February 2018

Vicki Nicholls talks about a day judging at the Petplan Veterinary Awards

Wow. What a day. Fresh from the Petplan Veterinary Awards Judging with a warm glow about the profession. Days like today make me even more thankful that I am a vet and able to celebrate this remarkable profession that we are part of.

The experience was stratospherically at odds with my pre-conceived expectations however.  I stupidly assumed this was another Presidential meeting to be squeezed into my hectic calendar with the usual challenges of childcare scheduling, made all the more difficult by the unfortunate clash with half term. One child and a dog happily left with grandparents 200 miles away and the other child safely ensconced in childcare (plus trusty trainers in my bag to dash from the train) and I was ready to “do my duty”.
It was certainly worth it.
I'll admit I was slightly perplexed by the judging system but having dutifully read and ranked each of the nominations in my category I felt as prepared as possible. Now I'm a prescriptive kind of person -I like tasks with recipe- like instructions. But you have to break some eggs to make an omelette (a delicious one at lunch thanks Petplan!) right? This is veterinary judging like no other…more “X Factor Judges Houses” than “Strictly Come Dancing”. There are no set criteria, no prescriptive guidelines, no previous examples and no benchmarks to follow. This was about finding something in the nomination that really stood out. Not that difficult I hear you mutter. BUT, and this is a very big BUT...clients appreciate gestures and words that we take as completely normal in this amazing profession and nominate their vets/practices/VNs accordingly. Knowing a pets name and greeting them with a smile and warm welcome may seem a normal part of your working day but Little things really DO count. One small gesture to us can really make a different to an owner...and a thoughtful nomination for the Petplan Veterinary Awards. The net result? Over 22,000 nominations this year to sift through and pick winners for each category. I suddenly realised that kindness and compassion is often taken for granted, but what a lovely way to recognise it. I'm already planning my nominations for next year and wishing I had thought to recognise colleagues in previous years.

I digress, so armed with my list of short-listed nominations (again I was amazed that Petplan employs an independent company to sort each nomination into category and short list so they have no input into the judging) I sat down with my two co-judges to discuss our group.  No specific assessment criteria plus a panel of scientifically minded people equals a bit of head scratching where to start but we were soon underway with enthusiasm and due diligence. Thankfully we had been well briefed to judge only on the nomination statements and each judging panel was comprised of at least one Veterinary association President and a past winner of that category which helped enormously.  Relief soon flowed around the table when we realised that something about our category winners had obviously struck a chord as our choices were unanimous. Again we took a vow of secrecy and were strictly reminded not to divulge our choices to even the Petplan organisers.

Being a vet gives me a great sense of community - I am part of one big and very special family. I am constantly astounded by the kindness, generosity, care, compassion and support within the veterinary population. Whatever your role within the veterinary team, there is no one defining criteria nor job description that recapitulates “what you do”. Every day is different and although the challenges are widespread, today reminded me of how extraordinary the individuals are within our profession. The generosity of spirit, the camaraderie and support, and the inspirational stories within the nomination packs exemplifies the very best of the veterinary profession. Today I was prouder than ever to be part of it. There seems to be a tide of apathy in the profession, a disgruntlement with the changing face of the "James Herriott" era. But the core of the profession hasn't changed and the foundations are built on kindness and compassion. Do something amazing for your profession and nominate someone for next year.

And the winner of my category is....you shall have to wait until April 5th 2018 like the rest of us!

Friday, 5 January 2018

Vicki Nicholls on her day volunteering at a BEVA Trust Education and Welfare Castration Clinic

I will admit, like most things in life, it’s easy to be skeptical about an experience before you have actually tried it. Don’t get me wrong, as BEVA senior vice president I have always supported the work done by the BEVA Trust but it wasn’t until I took part in a BHS Castration clinic that I realized what an amazing project this is.

So to give you some background, I have a pathological hatred of castrations. A bad experience early on in my career has literally scarred me for life. Of course I have done countless castrations since but my recent move to the University of Liverpool Veterinary Postgraduate Unit has left me a little “match unfit” in terms of practical skills wielding a scalpel. Notwithstanding that I volunteered on the premise of “doing dentistry”;  I haven’t really be doing a lot of that either recently thanks to the demands juggling BEVA commitments with the rest of my life. A frantic text flurry to a colleague the night before did little to reassure me that “it was just like riding a bike” …not least because I’m not very good at that either.

Therefore, It was with some degree of trepidation that I arrived at the Bakewell Livestock Auctioneers last week. Having hastily scrabbled together a reasonably looking professional kit to meet both the demands of the weather (including some borrowed waterproofs thanks Hannah) and any potential challenges posed by the day, I felt as ready as a new graduate on the first day of practice.

But I need not have worried. The entire Veterinary Team was brilliant in both camaraderie and support. The support team incredible, efficient and friendly and even the naughtiest patient restrained with the skill of an experienced RVN. The BHS and equine welfare charities actively recruit participants to the clinic; relief quickly replaced skepticism when well-known local offenders turned up for the first time. The owners were incredibly grateful and took the educational opportunities on board with relish. And making a difference to one horse’s mouth made it all worthwhile…whether the owner calls the BEVA member we recommended remains to be seen but at least the pony can eat comfortably now and the indiscriminate breeding of the “rescued” herd has been halted by widespread emasculation.

No one struggled, help was freely offered and there was a real sense of comradeship. We were all in it together for the welfare of the horse. The University of Liverpool veterinary students (and people like me needing a refresher) had the opportunity to see (and do) more castrations than ever possible in practice whilst making a difference, whatever tip of the iceberg may be. The local practices were hugely supportive and the entire day run under the professional yet sympathetic organization of Gemma Stanford of the BHS who later told me
 “It did feel like ‘Challenge Anneka’ at times as we all raced to beat the rain to passport, chip and worm 37 ponies and castrate 15 of them”…including a few too small to castrate standing.

We have now had 710 horses attend the BHS/BEVA Trust clinics and 328 of those horses have been castrated – all through the support of BEVA members giving up their time and expertise. That’s pretty Incredible! That one-day reignited my passion for the veterinary profession and the kindness that is within it.  I urge you to support the BEVA Trust like so many have already done and be proud of our equine veterinary profession.

Wednesday, 2 August 2017

Joining a directorship and having a life?!?!?!

I am currently 33 and just about to buy into an established equine practice.  I have been a salaried director for 2 years having joined the practice just over two and a half years ago with the intention of joining the directorship.  I have worked in 100% equine practice for most of my career (bar a short stint in mixed practice as a new graduate) and have always looked for the next challenge!!  Prior to joining my current practice I worked for four and a half years in a fantastic practice as an equine vet, but felt I had to leave as there were no directorship opportunities and it wasn’t particularly near my family.  I was reluctant to settle into life long term as an assistant, and 3 hours from my family home.  I have always been one of those annoying people who relishes the most difficult option in life.  I remember being told by numerous careers advisors that I should pick a different degree course to apply for as ‘nobody gets into vet school’ (which was true of the college I did my A Levels at), but all this did was spur me on to prove them all wrong.

Having achieved a certificate in Equine Orthopaedics and Advanced Practitioner Status in my previous practice I was then looking for the next challenge.  I decided to look for a job nearer my family and with more opportunity for progression.  I only applied for one job, met my now business partner and decided there and then that this was the right place for me.  The practice needed some modernisation, but I got on well with my now partner, we had a very similar outlook on things and she complemented my orthopaedic bias by being an Advanced Practitioner in Equine Medicine and an experienced stud vet.

Rather naively I thought moving to a new practice with a few more letters after my name would cement me into the practice team quickly and gain me a name with the clients.  This didn’t happen – I still spend time doing vaccinations, being rejected by clients for being new, getting complaints because I didn’t do things in the same way ‘xxxx’ used to.

Joining the directorship has been a HUGE challenge – possibly more than I was looking for.  At times I have gone home and cried after yet another staff member has moaned about lack of communication in the practice, or handed in their notice when we are already short staffed.  The clients have been critical at times too, some of the long established clients have complained about my bedside manner and disliked the new practices adopted (not least that we now insist they pay their bills…).  I have come to the realization that you have to expect everything to be slightly falling apart all of the time – there is always someone complaining, someone leaving, someone off sick, some difficult case that has been pushed in your direction.  I am getting better at leaving it at work and trying to relax in my own time, but it is much harder once the buck stops with you.  I now get to fret about the practice finances, staff members, cars, equipment, H+S, practice standards inspection, accountants and a whole load of other stuff that never even crossed my mind when I was just a vet.

On the whole though I am enjoying it, I am now in a position where I can make decisions – hopefully to the benefit of our team and the business.  I am enjoying learning new skills (last week I learnt how to do the till rec after someone in accounts decided the best time to retire at short notice was when someone else in accounts was on holiday) and find the prospect of growing the business exciting.  I take great pride in every letter of thanks, every favourable Facebook post and tweet, every client who tells me how much they like one of our vets or nurses.  I am slowly winning round some of our long standing clients, but I think it will take time.  Being a director does not fast track you to the top of their ‘favourite vet’ list – you have to clock up years of service like everyone else.  

In terms of work life balance I am finding it hard.  I am writing this on a Tuesday evening several months after I was asked to write it because of lack of time.  I have been on CPD courses learning about putting all your tasks into categories and spending time doing the important but not urgent things – I fail at this mostly and spend lots of time doing urgent unimportant things!!  I am constantly worried about neglecting my friends and family by working too hard, so try to cram lots into my weekends off.  I have managed to maintain some rules from my life as an assistant – I still switch off my work phone when I’m not on call (though my colleagues have my private number my clients don’t), I vowed to take every single day of my holiday allowance every year and my allocated TOIL and so far, I have.  I try to exercise a few evenings a week and spend time with my other half.  I get up earlier so that I can ride my horse before work – meaning I can start the day with something enjoyable and not immediately be greeted with problems (this plan back fires if the horse throws me off which has happened a few times….).  Overall I think becoming a director has been the right choice for me, but it is a lot of work and stress which I don’t think you can appreciate until you make the jump.  My advice would be to find a practice where you get on well with the other directors – they will be your partners – the rest of the team are important but your fellow directors are the people who need to have your back.  I would probably suggest working in a practice a bit longer than I did before taking the plunge, it has been hard to gain the clients trust and loyalty at the same time as the staff, if I had more years of service under my belt I wouldn’t necessarily of had to do both at the same time.